Curse

Thomas.knbk · Mar 13, 2007, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operations

Jesus... so, none of you read 'Why Nuking Sucks" then?

Before you comment, I read the entire thread, thanks.
The point of 'why nuking sucks' is not to point out eles suck. The point is to point out that their direct damage sucks when compared to warriors. If you read past the OP, Ensign actually says ele's are very good at other things.

Eles are very much a threat in PvP. You know the typical balanced build consists of 2 warriors, 2 mesmers, 2 monks and 2 eles? You have water snarers with Trident or Icy Shackles, you have fire eles with Searing Flames or Savannah Heat, you have earth warders, and you have air runners. Elementalists do have their use, and since Nightfall they even have their use in dealing direct damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operations

Mmmm kay. Glyph of Lesser has a 30 second recharge. If you're not having to rely on the attunements (and that's a great idea with all the enchant hate introduced in Nightfall), what will you do for the other 20-24 seconds?

Glyph of Lesser Energy got a huge buff. It now equals almost three pips worth of energy.
Enchant hate? How much enchant removal does the average team have? Avatar of Grenth was nerfed, remember? You'll find a shatter or a drain on a mesmer, but nothing more. If you're unlucky you'll find both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operations

As for, "+7 regen would be overpowered" and the like... are you considering that at a 1 per 5, we're talking having used either an Energy headgear or a Superior rune for that, with the max points? Then any Ele will likely also have a maxed out primary element. That leaves a lot of missing Health...

And as for Primary Attribute abuse... whatever. You still can't apply runes to secondary attributes, and no one complains about say... Expertise being overpowered, or Fast Casting.

And again... ANet likes all these test weekends. Can we really say until we try it?

I'm pretty sure an ele with 13 in his element and 7 regen would be more effective than an ele with 16 in his element and 6 regen. In a lot of cases, the attribute doesn't matter that much. 70 dmg from Water Trident is nice, but who cares. It knocks you down at 13 water magic too. Storm Djinn's Haste? yeah, those 2 seconds are going to make a difference.
And every class would go ele primary. You noticed how HA's favorite backline is (was? haven't been there for a while) a rit spirit spammer , a N/Mo and a N/Rt? Why are they Necromancer primary? For the minions? No Wai. They're necro primary for the extra energy. Giving eles extra regen is the same thing, exept less conditional.
Fast Casting doesn't really compare to Energy Storage. Expertise would compare to your new energy storage, exept that it only lowers the cost of specific skills. Your new energy storage would effectively lower the cost of all skills. And really, people complain about Expertise being overpowered all the time. It's held in check by the overpriced ranger skills, but it is overpowered. When people find a way to use skills from their secondary with Expertise, this comes out. (remember Thumpers?) Your idea would do the same, exept it would be much easier to use skills from your secondary.

freekedoutfish · Mar 13, 2007, 10:37 AM // 10:37

I agree that ele's always get the rare end of the deal in GWs. But im not PvP'er so im not going to comment on that.

But concerning interuption;

Glypth of concentration or some other mesma skill which prevents interuption.

Darko_UK · Mar 13, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Hahha you guys are funny, Eles underpowered? ahahah nice joke

OhCrapLions · Mar 13, 2007, 02:44 PM // 14:44

I guess the OP doesnt realize they can snare and rape/violate a target in a few seconds. Not to mention some of their skills work with each other (water hex + air spells)

Not A Fifty Five · Mar 13, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Sorry but the OP really is correct... people saying this is a joke thread obviously have never played in high level gvg. Just saying "lol" is harmful to the discussion.

For spike, warriors and assasins are better. Due to the .75 aftercast that less experienced people forget about, they think a 1 second spell is X damage per second when its in reality close to half that. Warriors and assasins have no such aftercast, have deepwound, and IAS.

For pressure, Hexes and conditions are better. Reaper's mark is basically 5 energy for 300 long term damage, mantra of persist + remorse/phanstasm is just about as good. Eles have splash damage with fire which is extremely inneffective because high level gvg always has people spread out.

For Shutdown, air and water are decent, but bulls charge warriors/bash warriors pack better KDs with high damage. The only thing worth mentioning is bsurge really, but this sucks because of mending touch.

For efficiency, elementalists are a joke. Monks have signets LoD, RC, ZB etc etc, necromancers have reaper's mark and signet of lost souls, mesmers have inspiration, paragons have leadership... what do eles have? High energy and attunements. The high energy is worthwhile in RA but worthless in 10+minute gvgs, and attunements get stripped very easily. Ether prodigy is silly for everyone but runners cause it gets stripped and wow it hurts when it does, prism and second wind are interrupted like crazy.

I.e. people complained when divine boon went from 2 seconds to 10 recharge. Whaddya think would happen if they changed it to 10 energy 2 seconds cast and 45 second recharge? Honestly, SAYING ELES ARE NOT UNDERPOWERED IS A JOKE.

As said earlier, increasing energy regen would only make them battery primaries for other classes, I propose that energy storage works like expertise. A % energy return not from skills in this case but from elemental spells. That, or change attunements to, and I'm not kidding, 5 energy 1/4 cast 10 recharge.

Note: Despite the above changes that would occur, I would still never use elementalists. they're too vulnerable to interrupts. So what I propose is not gamebreaking at all.

Mitchel · Mar 13, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operations

Jesus... so, none of you read 'Why Nuking Sucks" then?

Um yeah. You must have skipped the whole part of, "Nuking and DoT skills are not as useful in PvP where the smart enemies don't bunch up." Mind you, that skill can be great in tandem with a water Ele...

As for, "+7 regen would be overpowered" and the like... are you considering that at a 1 per 5, we're talking having used either an Energy headgear or a Superior rune for that, with the max points? Then any Ele will likely also have a maxed out primary element. That leaves a lot of missing Health...

And as for Primary Attribute abuse... whatever. You still can't apply runes to secondary attributes, and no one complains about say... Expertise being overpowered, or Fast Casting.

And again... ANet likes all these test weekends. Can we really say until we try it?

Yay for Gale!

tacitus · Mar 13, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

Sorry but the OP really is correct... people saying this is a joke thread obviously have never played in high level gvg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operations

As for, "+7 regen would be overpowered" and the like... are you considering that at a 1 per 5, we're talking having used either an Energy headgear or a Superior rune for that, with the max points? Then any Ele will likely also have a maxed out primary element. That leaves a lot of missing Health...

yeah lets keep this thread on track of high level gvg with 2 sup runes and a big spike me target over that characters head.

Eles are used in top gvg and ha teams all the time not only with savanna heat and other high damage fire skills but also with air air/water and earth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operations

Same here. If you're not in a guild that does HA/TA regularly, good luck finding a team that will take you when you say you're a water build. I don't have that problem now *points at guild tag*, but I remember when I had to try and PUG those areas.

This is not a problem with eles being underpowered its a problem with how teams are created. You seem to be saying water eles are good but pugs don't know about it so lets buff eles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

Note: Despite the above changes that would occur, I would still never use elementalists. they're too vulnerable to interrupts.

Its lucky that those pro warriors/sins/paragons and rangers have nothing to stop them... oh wait blind/wards/aegis chains/sod/reckless haste/price of failure etc.

Now i know that there is prob an equal number of caster hate things out there im not saying casters like eles have it easy, but they don't have it as bad as you are making out. Eles have a lot of use in both ha and gvg (without 2 sup runes btw

)

Not A Fifty Five · Mar 13, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Well the note was just a personal preference, I was just pointing at that this wouldn't make them all powerful, far from it. You know how it is, some noob on the forums then says "ZOMG THEY"D BE TOO UBER NO WAY BLAH BLAH.." if you don't have some little disclaimer. Changing attunes to make them reappliable simply puts them on par with easily reapliable monk and mesmer effects like mantras and low recharge maintained enchants.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 13, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

ome noob on the forums then says "ZOMG THEY"D BE TOO UBER NO WAY BLAH BLAH.."

Please explain how Water Trident, Freezing Gust, Blinding Flash, Searing Flames, Lightning Hammer/Orb, Mind Blast, Immolate, Deep Freeze, Heal Party, Aegis, Storm Djinn's Haste and more, who are already used a lot with 4 pips, would not be overpowered if the character had 6 or 7 pips of regen.
Or please explain how skills from every other profession, skills that are balanced aound 4 pips, would not be overpowered on a character with 7 pips.

Not A Fifty Five · Mar 13, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Please explain how Water Trident, Freezing Gust, Blinding Flash, Searing Flames, Lightning Hammer/Orb, Mind Blast, Immolate, Deep Freeze, Heal Party, Aegis, Storm Djinn's Haste and more, who are already used a lot with 4 pips, would not be overpowered if the character had 6 or 7 pips of regen.
Or please explain how skills from every other profession, skills that are balanced aound 4 pips, would not be overpowered on a character with 7 pips.

That's correct. read my post and you'll find I disagree with his solution

Ensign · Mar 13, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Honestly, the only midline caster that feels particularly strong right now is a Curses Necro. Water snares are still nice but I hate how Water Eles don't deal any damage; Fire is getting better but you're only as good as Mark is (Savannah Heat is really just a bad team detector). Air is as good as blind is, and Earth needs to kill things before it'll be considered more than a solo farming line. Dom is still reasonably robust, but it doesn't have anything really sweet besides Diversion anymore. Diversion spam + spiking = Mesmer?

Casters still have a few overpowered skills, and they'll slip into robust builds in order to take advantage of those. Otherwise casters exist for hex builds and not much else.

Peace,
-CxE

BryanM · Mar 13, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Scourge Light of Deliverance ~~

Is this a fair comparison of Channeling versus Elementaling damamge in general? ->

[skill]Spirit Burn[/skill]

[skill]Lightning Orb[/skill]

[skill]Immolate[/skill] [skill]Liquid Flame[/skill]

[skill]Obsidian Flame[/skill] [skill]Ebon Hawk[/skill] [skill]Stoning[/skill]

[skill]Vapor Blade[/skill]

Burn's had its recharge bumped up to 8, but even still fire's the only line that seems to be heading to Channeling's tier of damage. Which might be okay I guess, since raw damage is all those attributes have to offer...

Thomas.knbk · Mar 13, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Honestly, the only midline caster that feels particularly strong right now is a Curses Necro. Water snares are still nice but I hate how Water Eles don't deal any damage; Fire is getting better but you're only as good as Mark is (Savannah Heat is really just a bad team detector). Air is as good as blind is, and Earth needs to kill things before it'll be considered more than a solo farming line. Dom is still reasonably robust, but it doesn't have anything really sweet besides Diversion anymore. Diversion spam + spiking = Mesmer?

Casters still have a few overpowered skills, and they'll slip into robust builds in order to take advantage of those. Otherwise casters exist for hex builds and not much else.

Peace,
-CxE

Honestly, I have to disagree here. The strength in water snares is not that they deal damage, but that they allow others, namely your melee, to deal exponentionally more damage than they would without the water ele.
Savannah Heat is a bad team detector, but it's also a match winner against the archers at VoD, much like glyphsac+MS is, with the difference that it's more usable during the 20 minutes before VoD. If that's worth devoting your elite slot to is most certainly debatable, but it's more than you make it.
Now that Gale is nerfed you're sort of right about air, though dual attune Lightning Orb/Hammer spammers seem to be the only/one of the very few direct damage midline template(s) at the moment and every flag runner uses Storm Djinn's Haste.
Wards for whatever reason aren't widely used in this metagame, but they have been in the past and they could be in the future. If AoE's (like Savannah) should be nerfed wards will be a nice unremovable way to screw up assassins.

Operations · Mar 14, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Casters still have a few overpowered skills, and they'll slip into robust builds in order to take advantage of those. Otherwise casters exist for hex builds and not much else.

Thank you. I didn't think I was the only person that saw this.

Sure, sometimes I like being captain support, but occasionally, I'd like to just kill things.

Now, I'd like to see the recharges on Ele spells lowered, maybe the energy costs a few lowered as well. (I mean, ok... SH got lowered to 5, but it has a 25 recharge? What's the point? You can't spam it.) But while Izzy keeps upping the damage, he seems to hate changing recharge except when it doesn't help...

"Yeah, I'll lower the recharge on Exhaustion spells! Brilliant!" ~Izzy

As they seem to not want to touch the cost/recharge issue, maybe we need to look at a revamp of Energy Storage. Regen is one option. Perhaps a 'reverse expertise' where it gives a refund (less than attunements) on each successfully cast spell... (1..2 MAX, otherwise that would be insane with attunements), or the real obvious solution that Izzy can't seem to find... LOWER THE RECHARGE ON ATTUNEMENTS TO 15 SECONDS! I mean, they lowered the recharge on the Conjure line, which most people still don't use, but left the recharge on attunements alone... WHAT?